Topics: US election; Australia-US relationship; Abortion laws;
07:35AM AEDT
7 November 2024
Patricia Karvelas: What’s it like to try and engage with the Trump administration? Shadow Foreign Minister Simon Birmingham was a cabinet minister for the entirety of the first Donald Trump presidency. And he’s our guest this morning. Welcome to the program.
Simon Birmingham: Hello, Patricia. It’s good to be with you.
Patricia Karvelas: It’s very lovely to have you on the show. You were in government the last time Trump was in power. What would be your advice to the Albanese government?
Simon Birmingham: Patricia, it’s important to be clear about what Australia’s priorities and interests are and to be strong in advocating for them but advocating for them very clearly in a way about how they are mutually compatible and beneficial to Australia and the United States. And so, when it comes to some of the priorities that we have today in relation to the security environment we face and the need to ensure that AUKUS is delivered upon as quickly and effectively as possible, that is clearly mutually beneficial to both of our nations. And when it comes indeed to the strength of our two economies, it is mutually beneficial for us each to be as strong as one another, to be able to underpin those security considerations. They are some of the key arguments you’d advance when it comes to dealing with trade and tariff agendas, or with ensuring that we are actually delivering upon those AUKUS commitments that have been made and secured.
Patricia Karvelas: Do you agree with Joe Hockey that Australia should provide a sort of upfront payment in relation to AUKUS to try and seal the deal?
Simon Birmingham: I think the first thing we need to do is be clear that we have a very good deal that has been secured, that is very much in both countries’ interests, and it is unique to Australia, unique in terms of the sharing of military capability, but unique in terms of Australia’s scale of investment in shared capability and shared strength. We are making stronger US production to be able to secure Virginia class submarines. That will help to create a broader deterrence framework that benefits both the United States and Australia. And of course, we are investing in Australian capabilities that will ultimately see Australia in a position building future submarines, the SSN AUKUS that will be compatible and working closely with the US fleet again, broadening out a broader, stronger shared deterrence from conflict and ensuring the type of peace that we both wish to see.
Patricia Karvelas: I’m going to take you to my question should the – you haven’t addressed the payment issue. Should a deal be made to try and entice Trump to take an interest in this AUKUS deal?
Simon Birmingham: Patricia, I think it would be very irresponsible to be foreshadowing, as the Shadow Foreign Minister, that we wanted to change things initially. What we should be doing, first and foremost, is ensuring that President Trump and his incoming administration understand just what a mutually beneficial agreement AUKUS is to start with, as it has successfully been negotiated. This is something that enjoys strong bipartisan support in both of our countries. It was launched and of course, initially negotiated by the Morrison government with the Biden administration, but has enjoyed the support across the parliament, in Australia, across the Congress, in the United States. And it has done so because of those mutually beneficial aspects.
Patricia Karvelas: Okay. Do you back Kevin Rudd to serve out his full term as ambassador?
Simon Birmingham: Patricia, we want to see Kevin Rudd succeed. He has done a good job building that broad bipartisan support, securing important reforms through the Congress that underpin AUKUS. And we want to see him succeed because it’s in Australia’s best interests for our ambassador in Washington to succeed. Now, Anthony Albanese initially said he wasn’t appointing Kevin Rudd to be ambassador. He chose to take the risk knowing all that had been said before to make that appointment, even though Donald Trump was already a candidate for the presidency at that stage. We want to see obviously, that success, as I said, but the job is not bigger than Australia’s interests, no one person-.
Patricia Karvelas: You just said two different things, why have you highlighted the history then? If you want him to succeed?
Simon Birmingham: Because that’s why you’re asking me the question, Patricia. And everybody is well aware of the history. It has been highlighted in pretty much every interview I do. That’s why people are asking that question-
Patricia Karvelas: So, do you think the history should be moved on from?
Simon Birmingham: – I reference it in context. I hope it can be, and I hope it is. But of course, Kevin Rudd is not bigger than Australia’s interests, nor is Anthony Albanese’s personal commitment to Kevin Rudd. And so, they will have to make a clear eyed assessment as they work through coming months. But we hope, we hope for Australia’s interests that he is able to continue to do and be as effective as he has been to date.
Patricia Karvelas: Senator Matt Canavan, who sits in your Coalition party room, the joint party room, says instead of whining about Trump tariffs like we are some kind of hopeless basket case, how about Australia just takes charge of our own destiny for a change, we should get out of the Paris climate agreement. Dump net zero, which is dead anyway because of Trump, and unleash a new age of Australian energy abundance. Do you agree with that assessment?
Simon Birmingham: Well, there’s quite a bit in that. And short answer is no, I don’t agree with it in its totality. Now President Trump has made policy commitments coming into this election. And he’s won this election and seems to have won it convincingly. He takes an approach with policies that are sometimes less conventional than people are customarily used to, and he makes a strong and bold pronouncements that are less normal and more surprising than people are used to. But we have successfully worked through those types of policies before. When it comes to tariffs, we have in the previous government under Malcolm Turnbull, successfully ensured that Australia secured exemptions from Trump tariffs on steel and aluminium, and they were secured and achieved right through that Turnbull government and beyond. And so that’s a demonstration of just how effectively Australia has been able to mount the case about the mutually beneficial interests between our two countries before, and secure policy agreements between our countries that reflect the closeness of our relationship.
Patricia Karvelas: So if Donald Trump does pull out of Paris, are you saying Australia shouldn’t and should stay committed to net zero by 2050?
Simon Birmingham: I think we all need to look carefully in terms of how the totality of policies evolve over the next few years. I want to see Australia stay committed to net zero by 2050. I don’t anticipate any change in those commitments. You can see from the Coalition that we are making hard and difficult policy positions and decisions to be able to achieve that, such as the nuclear energy policy moving into a space of policy debate that nobody has been gamed to go into before, but doing so because we see it as necessary if you are to be credible in achieving net zero whilst protecting Australia’s industrial base in the future.
Patricia Karvelas: Niki Savva has written a really interesting column today saying that the core issues during the US Presidential election with cost of living, immigration, abortion and character of the candidates. These are the same issues, she says, that are going to be playing out at the next federal election. Do you agree?
Simon Birmingham: Well, I certainly think that cost of living will be the number one issue in Australia. And from all the commentators I’ve heard and indeed many of the vox pops the ABC’s been airing, those cost-of-living pressures and whether people feel worse off or better off than they were 3 or 4 years ago. Well, obviously of paramount consideration in the US, and they are clearly, from every conversation I have with voters in Australia of paramount concern to Australians who are feeling worse off than they were three years ago. Anthony Albanese made promises that people would be better off. They’re not. They’re demonstrably worse off. And what we’re seeing now is that inflation in Australia, which was lower than in comparable countries when Anthony Albanese was elected, is now higher than after three Labor budgets.
Patricia Karvelas: There’s an abortion bill in our Senate. Labor looks like it wants to move to remove that bill. Will you vote in favour of removing the bill?
Simon Birmingham: Well, any motion that comes in relation to that bill would be a conscience vote. We have been clear in terms of the Liberal Party leadership that Peter Dutton and the Liberal Party have no plans, no intentions to see any changes to abortion laws, that we respect the states’ rights in that regard. And I’m very clear in terms of my respect for women’s reproductive rights and the fact that I think they should be respected, and that it is important that people have that opportunity to make those careful considered choices themselves with their medical practitioners.
Patricia Karvelas: Would you vote to remove the bill?
Simon Birmingham: If that motion came forward, then likely the answer at a personal level would be yes, but I’m not seeing anybody putting that motion forward at present.
Patricia Karvelas: Abortion is on the national agenda then, isn’t it?
Simon Birmingham: Well, it will only be if people choose to politicise it. And I don’t think that Australians want to see it politicised. I don’t think Australians want to see it part of our national policy debate. And you’ve got very clear statements and assurances from Peter Dutton in relation to his beliefs and the approach that he and the Liberal Party will take if in government, which is one of not pursuing any changes. So if the Labor Party choose to politicise it from there, people can see that for what it is, which will be cheap politics, rather than listening to the assurances and commitments and convictions that have been given by the Liberal leadership.
Patricia Karvelas: I just want to take you back to your foreign affairs, kind of position. I took you to the domestic, now I’m taking you back overseas. Australia has been a long-time supporter of Ukraine. Donald Trump wants Ukraine to do a deal with Russia. Are you worried?
Simon Birmingham: Patricia, what I would want to see for Ukraine is indeed, on one level, the same thing as Donald Trump has said and that is peace. And we all wish to see an end to the war. How that peace is achieved is important. And we must see a just peace for Ukraine. And I am confident that Donald Trump would not want a situation where Russia feels empowered and emboldened, and presents a continuing threat to peace and stability in the years ahead. So, I hope that in his engagements with Ukraine, with Russia, and in pursuit of the peace, he says that he wants, he ensures it is a just peace that provides the type of security for Ukrainians to be able to live in the years and decades ahead with confidence in terms of their security.
Patricia Karvelas: Thank you so much for joining us this morning, Simon Birmingham.
Simon Birmingham: Thanks, Patricia. My pleasure.
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