Topics: Visa checks; CFMEU legislation;
07:45AM AEST
19 August 2024
Steve Cannane: Well, listening in to that conversation on Radio National Breakfast was the Shadow Foreign Affairs Minister, Simon Birmingham, and he joins me now. Senator, welcome back to RN Breakfast.
Simon Birmingham: Good morning, Steve. Good to be with you.
Steve Cannane: Likewise. Let’s go to the Prime Minister’s comments first. He has accused Peter Dutton of trying to whip up fear. He just told Sabra Lane on AM that he was a deeply divisive character. What’s your reaction to that?
Simon Birmingham: Well, I completely reject that. What we’re seeing from the Prime Minister and some of the Teals, like Zali Steggall, who all promised some sort of kinder, gentler politics, is that they are really quite happy to play the man rather than the ball, that they are happy to go on personal attacks against Peter Dutton rather than focus on the policy debate here. Which is about how Australia, with the finite number of places we offer for people to come and resettle in Australia, handles security screening and checks in ways that ensures we do not have terrorists, sympathisers or supporters and amongst those who come into our country. And, we are firmly of the view that the strongest possible screening and checks should be applied, and deeply concerned that the track record set by the Albanese Government is one that doesn’t involve the strongest possible screening or checks, because the average processing time for those who came out of Gaza was 24 hours, some were processed in as little as one hour, and not all went through full and thorough identity checking, biometric checking or other scrutiny that would enable identification as to whether they may have sympathies for the actions of Hamas, a listed terrorist organisation.
Steve Cannane: ASIO Director-General Mike Burgess told insiders eight days ago there are security checks being done for refugees who leave Gaza before visas are granted. Now Peter Dutton is saying we cannot tell who’s who unless thorough background checks are done. Is he saying that the checks being done by ASIO at the moment aren’t thorough?
Simon Birmingham: Well, what Mike Burgess spoke about was the screening process that’s undertaken and detailed checking of every person is not undertaken. Not in these types of circumstances. And indeed, Anthony Albanese misquoted Mike Burgess in the Parliament last week to drop out that fact that in reality there is a screening check that means some have full checking, some have lesser checking. Our view is that all should have full checking out of a situation in Gaza that is incredibly complex. That is a tragedy in terms of the loss of life that is occurring. But we’re also research indicates that there is significant community wide support for Hamas. That research undertaken, for example, by the Palestinian Centre for Policy and Survey, indicates that 57% of Gazans supported Hamas’s attack of October 7th. That’s deeply troubling-
Steve Cannane: But if Mike Burgess thought those security checks needed to be ramped up like Peter Dutton is suggesting they would be done, wouldn’t they?
Simon Birmingham: Well, there are complexities operating in all of these circumstances, and he is not being given by the government the type of tools that existed, for example, in Afghanistan that Zali Steggall referenced, or in Syria previously, where individuals were repatriated to a third country. Where then full and thorough checking could occur of identities through interview processes and the like that I outlined before, and that full and thorough checking process wasn’t rushed like it has to be when you are dealing with whether or not you can issue a visa immediately to somebody in the conflict zone. So, there are protocols put in place previously that offer a far better and more secure pathway for Australia than the one that the Albanese Government has applied.
Steve Cannane: I want to put some more comments to you that the Prime Minister made on Am. He said that the borders in Gaza are closed at the moment and that refugees are unable to leave the war zone. If that’s the case, why is the Opposition Leader brought this issue up now? What problem is he trying to solve?
Simon Birmingham: Because he answered a question from a fellow journalist, Steve. So, this wasn’t brought up by Peter Dutton as is being put. Yes. The borders in Gaza are closed at present. He was asked questions about the way in which the government has handled this to date, and he outlined our view in relation to the need to put security at the forefront of consideration in response to these matters. He responded to that as it was put to him. And of course, our expectations were the government to find pathways to be repatriating people or to be helping people in terms of leaving Gaza. The type of standards that should be applied in the future were that to become possible.
Steve Cannane: Mike Burgess warned just over a week ago against inflamed language around debates about the Middle East, saying that words matter, and he urged all parties to consider the implications for social cohesion when making public statements. Do you think the current debate is being carried out in a way that is good for social cohesion?
Simon Birmingham: Well, I’m always conscious when it comes to debates about the words that people use and the approach that the best person you’re able to judge is yourself. I try to make sure in my approaches that I stick to the facts and the evidence and the policy issues and that’s certainly what I’ve tried to do in this interview this morning. And I encourage everybody else to do so to ensure that the approach and the debate that we have is one about how Australia ensures our social harmony in the long run is kept together, and that means not having people who sympathise or support terrorist organisations like Hamas coming into our country. It is very critical to ensure long-term social cohesion and long-term safety without the risk of terrorism.
Steve Cannane: Peter Dutton, in an op ed in the News Limited papers, has written this morning. Instead of debating the facts, Labor, the Teals and the Greens accused the Coalition of being racist and heartless. When they do, they prove they are not only Hamas’s useful idiots, they also expose their complete disregard for our national security. Does accusing fellow MPs of being ‘useful idiots’ for a terrorist organisation fit into Mike Burgess’s criteria for maintaining social cohesion?
Simon Birmingham: I don’t think throwing around slurs of racism fits into that category. What I would note is that since October 7th, tragically, there are many things that Hamas would be happy about in terms of how public debate in countries like Australia and elsewhere around the world has unfolded.
Steve Cannane: What about that term useful idiots for Hamas being used by an opposition leader against fellow MPs?
Simon Birmingham: Well, as I was outlining, tragically, I think Hamas would be happy about the way some debates have unfolded. The way in which the government and others around the world have shifted the goalposts in relation to a two-state solution, and the approach to that seems to no longer put ensuring peace, security and recognition of Israel’s right to exist at the forefront as part of that negotiation and offers the opportunity for an early or premature approach to recognition. These types of changes have given Hamas the type of wins that they would be happy to see.
Steve Cannane: Okay, is that a term you’d use?
Simon Birmingham: Well, Steve, I use my words, my language, and I’m accountable for those.
Steve Cannane: Okay. It’s been reported over the weekend that Peter Dutton is seeking legal advice over comments made by Zali Steggall. Do you know if there’s any truth to that? And what’s your understanding of that situation?
Simon Birmingham: Well, I haven’t spoken to him about that, but as I said before, I think throwing around slurs like racist allegations is quite contrary to what the Labor Party and the Teals promised at the last election. And is an instance of playing the man, not the ball. And I expect we’ll probably, sadly, see a lot more of that in the run up to the federal election, where it seems as if the entire Labor modus operandi is one of seeking to tear down Peter Dutton, rather than to focus on the issues be that fixing cost of living and addressing those challenges, or this debate about how we ensure proper standards to keep Australians safe and secure in the future.
Steve Cannane: A few Coalition frontbenchers over recent years have either sued or threatened to sue for defamation. I’m thinking Linda Reynolds, Peter Dutton, Christian Porter. Should politicians sue for defamation when they get up in Parliament and use that platform? When they can get up in Parliament and use that platform, and they can use parliamentary privilege to set the record straight if they feel like they’ve been unfairly maligned.
Simon Birmingham: Well, everybody can use any platform. They want to try to set the record straight if they feel they’ve been unfairly maligned. But it is also a right of every Australian, whatever their political colour and whether they sit in a parliament or not, to expect that the laws of the land apply to them and that includes the right to claim defamation if you feel you have been defamed.
Steve Cannane: Senator, just quickly, on the issue of the CFMEU, the Coalition’s been calling on Labor to take action to clean that union up. It says, the government says it’s trying to, but it’s been blocked by the Coalition. Is the Coalition trying to drag this on as long as possible for political purposes?
Simon Birmingham: No, there remain three sticking points in the negotiations over the CFMEU. One is about having a minimum time that the union is put into administration. We don’t trust the Labor government not to rush this process, so we want a minimum time. The second is in relation to transparency and having the administrator appear before Senate Estimates, so that there is some transparency and accountability into this process. And the third is in relation to political donations and ensuring that the CFMEU cannot be donating to the Labor Party or the Greens whilst they’re in administration and whilst their corrupt activities are cleaned up. If Labor can come to the party and agree to those three very basic conditions, then this legislation can pass today.
Steve Cannane: Senator Birmingham, thanks for your time this morning.
Simon Birmingham: Thanks, Steve. My pleasure.
[ENDS]