Topics: Julian Assange;
06:35AM ACST
27 June 2024
Patricia Karvelas: There have been plenty of cheers and widespread relief at the release of Julian Assange. After years fighting extradition to the United States. The Labor Government has lobbied the US for the last two years to secure his freedom, a campaign that Assange’s supporters and lawyers praised last night. In fact, the Prime Minister’s efforts have been really pointed out by the Assange team as instrumental in what we’ve seen. But not everyone is happy with the level of support the Albanese Government has given, including the Shadow Foreign Minister, Simon Birmingham, who has shared pretty strong views on X. And he joins us now. Welcome to the program.
Simon Birmingham: Good morning, PK. Good to be with you.
Patricia Karvelas: So, Anthony Albanese called Julian Assange last night and of course shared this publicly. Well, and that’s how we know you said immediately wasn’t appropriate. Why not?
Simon Birmingham: Julian Assange yesterday pleaded guilty to charges under the Espionage Act for acts against Australia’s closest ally. How do you think that is interpreted to on the same day, plead guilty to charges under the Espionage Act against the United States and then receive a welcome home phone call from the Australian Prime Minister? It is completely unnecessary and totally inappropriate for Julian Assange to be greeted like some homecoming hero by the Australian Prime Minister. Now, am I happy that the legal saga is over? Yes. Was it totally appropriate for Julian Assange to receive normal consular assistance and support from the Australian Government? Of course it was. He’s an Australian citizen. He’s entitled to that. But he should not be feted, and he should not be held up in the same type of stature or homecoming welcome as those Australians who have been truthfully, truly wrongfully detained, like Cheng Lei or Kylie Moore-Gilbert or Sean Turnell.
Patricia Karvelas: Five years in Belmarsh prison. I mean, surely, given the conditions alone in that prison, you would expect the Prime Minister, wouldn’t you, to show a level of support for an Australian citizen?
Simon Birmingham: Julian Assange spent five years in a United Kingdom prison, not an Iranian prison, not a prison in Myanmar or in China, but in a UK prison. In a UK prison where he stayed there, continuing to fight and appeal against his extradition to the United States, on one of the charges he ultimately pleaded guilty.
Patricia Karvelas: Where his team argued he wouldn’t have been safe and could have faced the death penalty.
Simon Birmingham: Where his team argued he couldn’t be safe. In the United States, a country that had given assurances that it would not be seeking the death penalty. That ultimately is a country whose judicial system, Australia, I thought, respected and trusted of our closest military ally.
Patricia Karvelas: But do Australian citizens. I will interrupt you because it’s an important point. Australian citizens, would they get the same legal protections under the Constitution in the US that a US citizen would get? Are you really sure about that?
Simon Birmingham: Patricia, I’m not going to hold myself up as a legal expert or scholar-
Patricia Karvelas: Most people say no.
Simon Birmingham: -to those debates. Australian citizens and indeed the US is known for a very public, open, transparent legal system. One in which there are rights of appeal for individuals. Be very clear here, the idea that that Julian Assange should be held up and treated and feted in the same type of way as Australians who have genuinely been held as political prisoners, who have genuinely been arbitrarily detained by regimes that don’t offer that type of transparency. There is absolutely no comparison between the two.
Patricia Karvelas: Okay, that’s what this is quite a break. I suppose, that’s how I see it, of bipartisanship around this really important issue. A lot of Australians were calling for him to be released. Your government didn’t release him. Your former prime minister, Scott Morrison, didn’t, according to his team, didn’t lift a finger to get him released. Do you take responsibility for that?
Simon Birmingham: Well, as I’ve been very clear, we respect the US legal system, the UK legal system, the Swedish legal system, which Julian Assange also spent many years avoiding facing justice in. Of course, he chose to spend seven years hiding in the Ecuadorian embassy and avoiding the justice system in Sweden. These are not despotic regimes. These are fellow democracies, like-minded countries and close friends of Australia, Sweden, the United Kingdom and the United States.
Patricia Karvelas: Politely, as I do with all of my guests, take you to my question, which is Scott Morrison, your former government, you’re only in government a couple of years ago, did nothing to lift a finger to help him. Right?
Simon Birmingham: We respected the rights of an Australian citizen for consular assistance, as we would anybody in jail in the United Kingdom in terms of ensuring their welfare, their wellbeing, and working with them in making sure they had appropriate access to legal counsel and all of those other factors. But ultimately, these are countries whose legal systems we respect and whose legal systems we also do not control.
Patricia Karvelas: So, do you believe he should have been extradited to the United States?
Simon Birmingham: Well, that was always a matter for the courts and the judicial process. He was entitled to pursue appeal after appeal after appeal-.
Patricia Karvelas: But do you think he should have gone to the United States?
Simon Birmingham: Well, again, Patricia, you’re asking me to sit as a judge of a UK court. I’m not going to pretend to do that. That’s a matter for those legal systems. Julian Assange ultimately pleaded guilty to a charge under the US Espionage Act. That is what he pled guilty to. You had a very good expert on yesterday morning who outlined that, of course, the time he served in the UK jail was probably at the high end of what he would have got had he actually gone to the US and faced justice. You can compare it to Chelsea Manning, who of course, provided him with the information that he published. And Chelsea Manning was released, I think close to seven years ago. Or perhaps it was after serving seven years in jail, but a long time ago. That case came to an end. If he had faced up to justice earlier, perhaps he would have indeed been released and freed earlier too.
Patricia Karvelas: Do you think Scott Morrison should have done more to fight for his release?
Simon Birmingham: As I’ve been very clear, I think, of course, he was entitled to all of the consular support we would usually have-.
Patricia Karvelas: That’s not my question. Because Anthony Albanese has gone kind of next level in raising it, according to his team at the highest levels. Should Scott Morrison have also done that?
Simon Birmingham: I also note, Patricia, that the White House was at pains yesterday to say that they played no role in his release. And indeed, as your expert who was on yesterday said they expect the Justice Department in the US took the pragmatic decision that this had gone on long enough and he had basically served the sentence he would have got had he actually faced justice in a US court.
Patricia Karvelas: Let me put this to you, Senator Matt Canavan. He’s in your broader party room, a national, obviously, but still in your Coalition, has tweeted Julian Assange is an Australian hero because his brave reporting helped expose the tragic folly of the wars we started in recent years. He’s reporting helped end these wars sooner and that saved thousands of lives. We need the same type of brave reporting to avoid more war. That’s someone in your own party room, do you? Are you sympathetic with that view?
Simon Birmingham: Not remotely. Not remotely. Patricia. Julian Assange dumped a lot of information onto the internet. Now, within that, there were some documents that exposed wrongdoing. But does that automatically make him a journalist or indeed a whistleblower? When he didn’t examine those documents, he didn’t curate those documents. He simply dumped a huge amount of data, information onto the internet. I don’t think that qualifies because he didn’t consider what other documents could present harm or risk to others that would actually compromise national security or other things. This wasn’t a careful whistleblowing. This wasn’t an act of heroism. It was simply an act of somebody who was happy to take any and all information given to him and publish it. That’s not what you’d do on the ABC, and it’s not what any other responsible journalist would do or publisher.
Patricia Karvelas: Just final and very quick question. Do you believe that by providing this support, calling Julian Assange, the Prime Minister has done damage to the US alliance?
Simon Birmingham: I think there will be people across the US Congress and elsewhere who will think very poorly of Anthony Albanese’s decision to personally welcome home somebody, an Australian who on the same day had pleaded guilty to an espionage charge in the US.
Patricia Karvelas: Has anyone told you that or is that just your vibe?
Simon Birmingham: Well, there was plenty of criticism from former US Vice President Mike Pence down to the plea deal that had been established. If they thought the plea deal was too lenient, I doubt they’d think it was a good idea for the Australian Prime Minister to be giving him such a warm welcome home.
Patricia Karvelas: It’s been good to speak to you this morning. Simon Birmingham, thanks for joining us.
Simon Birmingham: Thank you, PK.
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