Topics: Senator Birmingham’s time in parliament;
09:05AM ACDT
23 January 2025
Rory McClaren: During the Covid 19 pandemic and is currently shadow foreign affairs minister. Now, of course, late last year he announced that he would be leaving the political stage. So, for what might be the final time in the ABC Radio Adelaide studio. Simon Birmingham, welcome.
Simon Birmingham: Good morning. Rory. It’s great to be with you. I told David Bevan that I couldn’t possibly go on without him. But maybe now that I’m here, I should reconsider.
Rory McClaren: We’re trying, we’re trying. Simon Birmingham, you made your decision to retire from politics public in November. So, why for you are the next couple of days so important?
Simon Birmingham: This is nearing the conclusion. I would expect that Peter Dutton will finalise the reshuffle of his frontbench sometime over the next week, and I’ll then finish up my time as a senator for South Australia, just a few months short of 18 years in the Senate, somewhere just after that reshuffle. So late last year, you flagged that you might go through to the May election or the election, which is due in May. Have you had a change of heart? And are you going earlier? Why? Pull it forward.
Simon Birmingham: No, no. Look, there was a bit of mixed reporting, perhaps at the time of the announcement, but it was always my intention. And indeed, not long after I announced the intention to leave politics, there was a statement made by one of the next things that I’ll be doing, which is to go and work in the corporate sector about a new role working in finance and commerce and banking sector that I’ll be taking on, and that commences in February and that was made clear in that statement. So, it’s always been clear this will be happening.
Rory McClaren: This has to happen now doesn’t it?
Simon Birmingham: It is happening now. It is very real. And it’s a I mean, it’s a big change in my life after close to 18 years. But it’s an opportunity as well where I really do want to say a big thank you to the people of South Australia in the end, first and foremost, for all of the senior, ministerial and other roles I’ve held. My first job has been as a Senator for South Australia and to represent this amazing state and represent and try to pursue the interests of the state. And they have been diverse over that time. I came in at the point of the millennium drought and all of the focus on the River Murray at that stage. And of course, through this time, whether it’s submarines, Whyalla, there have been plenty of state rich issues.
Rory McClaren: There are a lot of issues we can delve into and we will do that. Who do you think should replace you in the Senate? And you know, one name that has been floated within Liberal Party ranks is Leah Blythe. Do you think she should replace you and would be a good replacement for you in the Senate?
Simon Birmingham: Rory, the Liberal Party has already started its pre-selection process. In fact, that pre-selection will be held on Friday, the 31st of January. So just over a week away, there are three candidates who are contesting that pre-selection. I’m not going to publicly endorse endorsed them. Ultimately, I’m confident the Liberal Party will continue to have great representation in the Senate from South Australia. I leave some wonderful colleagues in Anne Ruston, Karen Liddle, David Fawcett. You know, we’ve got a really great mix of people who are representing, you know, our state. And I want to make sure that, you know, particularly the lower house where we’re seeing some regeneration people like James Stevens. But Tom Venning, the new candidate for Grey, I’m very excited about. And of course, Nicole Flint seeking to come back in Boothby.
Rory McClaren: It’s 9:10. That’s the voice of Simon Birmingham, outgoing Liberal Senator for South Australia and Shadow Foreign Affairs Minister. A text – I thought Simon did a wonderful job during Covid. He was so calm and reassuring and so well informed on so many subjects. Good luck for the future. Is one of the texts we’ve had now. It’s been two months since you made your announcement. Any second thoughts?
Simon Birmingham: No second thoughts. Rory. I mean, I’m only human. There is a chance that Peter Dutton and the Liberal Party are going to walk away from the. They’re going to win, I mean, the next election. And that I could be walking away from being the country’s next foreign minister. You know, that’s a big call. And indeed, I have been struck by how nice some people have been. You know, your texter there that random people stopping me in the street to thank me and to wish me well. And as a politician, your skin gets pretty thick and you get used to the criticism and barbs of office. And that’s just part of it. But it’s very touching to have that. And so no, there aren’t second thoughts, but I guess if there are the parts that tug on you a little bit, it is of course, when you have those nice interactions with people.
Rory McClaren: You gave an extensive speech to the Senate in November, and there was a line that stuck out to me that I really wanted to ask you about, and it was about the fact that you acknowledged that you’d seen too many prime ministers and that you acknowledged the political blood on your own hands during those more turbulent times. Do you stand by the decisions you had to make or you made through your career that led to that blood being on your hands?
Simon Birmingham: Look, I do stand by that decision. I mean that that in particular was a reference to my role in helping to make Malcolm Turnbull prime minister. And of course, that was at the expense of Tony Abbott. And I acknowledge, Tony, in that speech, as I did all of the leaders I’ve served under. And Tony put me on the Liberal Party frontbench and put the Liberal Party back into government. And I had never thought and never wished that we would repeat what had happened under Labor with the turn of prime ministers. But circumstances evolved. I was convinced that we would have lost the 2016 election if we had gone on the track that we were on. Of course, I was close to Malcolm ideologically, personally, but it was that belief in terms of how best to preserve a Liberal government and to continue the work of budget repair and economic reform that we were pursuing, that ultimately drove me to back a change then, but certainly we saw too many prime ministers.
I said to Robert Hill, a former senator, a great mentor and friend of mine. One day I was like, “Robert, how come you got to be a cabinet minister during the Howard years with sort of a decade of stability and certainty there?” And, you know, here I am as a minister dealing with all of this change. And Robert said, “my boy, remember, I spent 13 years in opposition before I got to be a cabinet minister.”
And again, perspective. And we do live in a in a much more fractious, I think, political environment than even 20 or 30 years ago.
Rory McClaren: Can I ask you about policy challenges that you faced in your career as a minister? Let’s talk about your time as finance minister and trade minister in and around Covid financially. Eventually, how big a challenge was it to work alongside Josh Frydenberg and the rest of the senior leadership team to get Australia through the pandemic?
Simon Birmingham: They were the most momentous of times. I mean, I will never forget the 1st of February 2020. It was the day of a Liberal Party preselection for Andrew McLachlan, another great colleague that I’m leaving behind. Coming into the Senate, it was the day of of our eldest daughter’s birthday party.
Rory McClaren: Did you get to the birthday party?
Simon Birmingham: Eventually, because I got a ping of a message saying, we’re going to have a National Security Committee meeting of Cabinet. And I looked at it and I thought, I know what’s coming here. This was the meeting where we discussed closing Australia’s borders to China due to the Covid outbreak in Wuhan province. And in that meeting, of course, I was the trade and tourism minister. China, our biggest trade and tourism partner. So, you have to play your role. I challenge the health officials there. Tested and argued as to whether this was a decision we decision we should be taking as a nation, but ultimately agreed with the cabinet consensus that it was in Australia’s best interests to delay that exposure to Covid and to minimise that risk. But we knew then that was the biggest decision we could take. Except then we subsequently closed the borders to other countries and then to the world, and then we created new economic support and financial support. And then, of course, most significantly, the JobKeeper program, that was the biggest intervention ever and came with huge financial cost.
Rory McClaren: Can I pick you up on that? We’ve got a text here. Can the senator explain why he allowed the Morrison government to accumulate more than $1 trillion in debt during his term as finance minister?
Simon Birmingham: Well, firstly, that’s not correct. In fact, Australia has not accumulated more than $1 trillion in debt. But we did increase debt significantly, and we did so to save the economic capital of Australia. Jobkeeper, yes, was framed to save people’s jobs. But even more importantly, it saved businesses. We were on the cusp of seeing an unprecedented level of bankruptcies and business failures. And if we had allowed that to occur, what we would have seen was that the economic recovery from that would have been so much harder, because you wouldn’t just have had people out of work. You wouldn’t have actually had the businesses in place to re-employ them either.
Rory McClaren: I’m speaking with outgoing South Australian Liberal Senator Simon Birmingham. Can I ask you about the development of AUKUS and your role in that? Are you still satisfied today that that pact and that decision is in Australia’s best interests?
Simon Birmingham: Absolutely. Our partnership in terms of developing the type of defence deterrence in our region that is essential to preserve peace and prosperity and security in our region, is an important one. And that partnership and alliance with the United States is critical. AUKUS will give the Australian Defence Force not just in terms of nuclear-powered submarines, but also in terms of other advanced defence technology, the best defence capabilities and it will also uplift our defence industrial capability to levels that Australia has not previously had in terms of the technological sophistication and skills that will be required.
Rory McClaren: I want to go into that a little bit further. We’ve had some more texts, don’t really understand 891’s love affair with this guy. I’m turning the radio off. Is one text. Another text, a calm, moderate voice within the Liberal Party. He will be sorely missed. Thank you, Simon. So as always, as you said, you need a thick skin through this. Simon Birmingham.
Simon Birmingham: Absolutely. And as I said in the farewell speech, I knew that there would be those happy to see me go. But it wasn’t enough to stay just to spite them or prove them wrong.
Rory McClaren: Let’s talk about we’ve obviously just touched on AUKUS, but let’s talk more broadly about Australia’s relationship with the United States. Do you have reservations about what the relationship between Australia and the United States will look like under a second Trump term?
Simon Birmingham: I have great confidence in the resilience of our bilateral relationship with the United States. So, I think that we are in a strong position to continue to work in terms of those shared security challenges that relate to AUKUS. The US is Australia’s largest investment partner, and we’re in a strong position to continue to yield that US investment that sustains much of the economic activity and business growth in our country. Ultimately, in terms of trade flows, the US has a significant trade surplus against Australia on the whole. Australia, from my days as trade minister, has run significant trade surpluses ourselves with the rest of the world, and often people don’t know that we as a country export far more than we import. Now on a regular basis. But with the US it’s in reverse. So, there’s a lot there for why it’s in the United States best interest to maintain a strong bilateral relationship, one-on-one relationship with Australia. But I can see under the Trump administration the risk in terms of tension with many other parts of the world. And of course, the decisions that are being made in relation to international architecture, such as the World Health Organisation, and that’s going to test us. Australia, the mix of partnerships we have, in the same way that it will test other close partners of ours like Japan, like countries in Europe, as to how we navigate those challenges of disruption that Donald Trump is causing.
Rory McClaren: On that. What’s your view on US style politics and the way that politics has been conducted in the United States? The US has a brashness to politics, a degree of money attached to its politics. And what we are seeing not just in the US, but if we look across many of the countries of Europe and elsewhere, is a significant fracturing, a rise of extremes, a change in the tone of politics and that tribalism, in some cases, the rise of those extremes in other cases. It doesn’t sit well with somebody like me. I do consider myself to be a proud liberal in a traditional sense of free and open markets, but also respect for personal, individual liberties and rights. And I can see those things being challenged by that rise in populist sentiment in many different parts of the world.
Rory McClaren: Including Australia?
Simon Birmingham: Not yet significantly in Australia. But of course, it is a trend that is hard to resist as it as it seems to take on greater global momentum. And that is something that we are going to have to work very hard as a country to make sure that we preserve the things that make this country so successful.
Rory McClaren: Also, your party as well. What do you make of the state of your party at a national level?
Simon Birmingham: At a national level, the Liberal Party, though having the fewest seats we have had, of course, in a long time remains nationally a very powerful force. The Liberal Party has governed Australia for close to 70% of the years since Robert Menzies won his first election. So, the framing of modern Australia, which is so successful relative to the rest of the world, economically, socially, in a harmonious sense and a whole range of ways, has in large part been due to that predominance of Liberal governments-.
Rory McClaren: That’s at the national level. But what about the state of the South Australian branch of the Liberal Party?
Simon Birmingham: It’s tough. There is no doubt that the state team are having a tough time. And indeed, I think it is important, as I look at the balance of the party, and particularly at a state level as well, that there is a consciousness of ensuring that it remains true to that type of liberal thought that I spoke of as well as conservative thought.
Rory McClaren: Are you concerned that the party has moved too far to the right?
Simon Birmingham: I don’t think that’s the case in our parliamentary teams at this stage.
Rory McClaren: But at grassroots level?
Simon Birmingham: It’s a worry if that manifests itself in a change in terms of parliamentary representation, that over time diminishes the two strands of the Liberal Party that are so important. That John Howard always spoke about. That broad church analogy and it is critical for its success, which means the messy thing about the Liberal Party is people haven’t always agreed. You have those conservative thoughts, you have those liberal thoughts and sometimes they clash. But that actually leads to good decision making.
Rory McClaren: But on that, we know that at a grassroots level, the right of the Liberal Party in South Australia has been growing in size and numbers, and that’s represented through various tiers of the party structure. All the way up to the state executive. How much of that is actually down to your side of the party? Maybe not being as active at a grassroots level as the right?
Simon Birmingham: Look, ultimately, numbers matter in politics. I think I heard you say that earlier in the program, and they are always a determinative factor. Now, when I entered the Senate, my other Senate colleagues comprised conservative backed senators like Nick Minchin, Alan Ferguson, Grant Chapman, Cory Bernardi. So, we’ve seen ebbing and flowing in relation to the Liberal Party since. I leave with people like Andrew McLachlan, Anne Ruston, Karen Liddle there, who are far more centrist in terms of within the Liberal Party, much of their thinking and pragmatic approach. So that ebbing and flowing is something that has happened over time. I’m not a catastrophist when it comes to where the party may or may not be at, but I absolutely urge and encourage people to get engaged and be involved. Criticising where our party systems sit from the outside achieves little. Getting engaged and involved is the chance to change things, and people who don’t want to see a union driven Labor Party dominate, do want to have a credible alternative choice but don’t want it to be excessively conservative. Well join the Liberal Party and shape that balance.
Rory McClaren: I’m speaking to Simon Birmingham, who is the outgoing Liberal Senator for South Australia. An idea that was put forward last year which has been rebuffed. But is it worthy of consideration of the formalisation of the factions within the state Liberal Party?
Simon Birmingham: Rory, whether it requires formalisation is one thing, certainly an idea that I floated a little while ago and I would love to love to see people come back to, is to change some of the internal voting systems. To be essentially more like the way South Australians vote for the Senate or the Legislative Council to apply a proportional representation system to it, so that you actually don’t have systems where people are potentially fighting for winner takes all. You know, do or die type situations. But you do have voting systems that accommodate and guarantee an accommodation of that broad breadth of opinion. And if you think about the way the South Australian Labor Party at a state level has quite successfully managed their internal differences, they still have a strong left wing faction and a dominant right wing faction. It is the fact that neither is pushed aside by the other, and I think there is something to be said for looking at structures. Voting systems can be part of that structure, using proportional representation that could provide that balance and remove some of the heat from the equation that then enables people across those factions and ideologies to better work together.
Rory McClaren: We have a text. Are you leaving because of Alex Antic?
Simon Birmingham: No, I’m leaving because I’ve spent nearly 18 years in the Australian Senate. Because at age 50, I’m not about to spend the next 15 years there.
Rory McClaren: You’re still a young man, though, Simon.
Simon Birmingham: I am still a young man. But everyone has a clock running on them politically and if I’m to do something else successful in my life, there’s a good opportunity on the table, and it’s a good chance for me to go out and do that much easier at 50 than 55 or 60 to start a new career.
Rory McClaren: Another text. Such a shame that this Liberal party is so far removed from the party Menzies founded. It’s not funny. Today’s Liberal Party would reject Menzies if he turned up with his policies today.
Simon Birmingham: I don’t believe that’s the case. I think the Liberal Party indeed still has space for liberals and conservatives, but it is a fair debate to have, particularly in this state, as to how you fix what has been an entrenched problem in terms of now the public perception of internal division. And so, if significant constitutional change, changes to those types of voting structures I spoke about could address some of that public problem and force actually factions and people of different perspectives to work more effectively together. From young liberals right through the whole organisation, then that could make it more fit for governing at this state level and better able to win elections in that environment.
Rory McClaren: A key policy that the Coalition is taking to the next federal election is the nuclear policy. What’s your stance? Obviously, we know that the discussions around a modular reactor being built in Port Augusta or outside of Port Augusta. What is your stance?
Simon Birmingham: Way back in 2007, when I gave my first speech to the Australian Senate, I said that nuclear should be on the table. My view is that we should be technology agnostic when it comes to zero emissions energy sources and how we let them develop. Of course, you need safeguards and appropriate frameworks for how you operate these technologies.
Rory McClaren: What the policy is the Coalition is putting forward is it realistic and can it actually be delivered?
Simon Birmingham: Well, Rory, I believe it can be delivered. And of course, it is possible to get on and to build those reactors. Other countries are. We are seeing other countries put greater focus on nuclear as part of that mix. I wish that Australia had removed the prohibition much earlier to enable the market to test that out. I wish the Labor Party would be open minded on this, because if you actually had a situation where we could just remove that prohibition and have bipartisan consensus that if it had market support, it could develop under a safe, regulated framework. Well, then you could perhaps avoid the type of government intervention that is being spoken of because you actually created a market certainty. And in some ways, that’s not far removed from what Peter Malinauskas often says. The problem we’ve got is the entrenched opposition of the federal Labor Party from an ideological perspective, opposed to nuclear and therefore committed to supporting a ban on it taking place, rather than simply committing to remove that prohibition, giving certainty that it could be part of our mix if the economics add up. Which, of course, for 19 out of the 20 other G20 nations in the world, they have determined that the economics do add up, because nuclear is either part of their fuel cycle or intended to be part of their fuel cycle in the future.
Rory McClaren: I’ve got a text – all the best, Birmo – and this will be a question off the back of this. All the best, Birmo. Thank you for your leadership in terms of your stance with the with the Aboriginal voice referendum. You’ve campaigned the two most recent. Well, we had the, I’ll ask you about the voice referendum first. Was that a disappointment for you?
Simon Birmingham: Rory, in many ways, the fact the referendum happened was a disappointment for me. It’s a funny text, to be honest, because I approached the referendum very, very carefully. I didn’t resign from the Liberal Party frontbench so that I could openly campaign for a yes vote. But, you know, nor other than, supporting my colleagues did I go out as a vocal opponent because I thought actually the country was just in a terribly sad place with the referendum that was forced upon us. That it was clear once bipartisanship had broken down and the model that was being proposed wasn’t likely to get success, and it would be counterproductive to push ahead with it. And I think it’s unfortunate that the Prime Minister did that and created the situation where it achieved nothing for anybody in the end, as distinct from having worked properly to develop something that could have been a bipartisan recognition, that would have required some give and take on more sides than perhaps were willing to offer it, including from some Indigenous groups.
Rory McClaren: And what about the plebiscite? Which you also acknowledged in your valedictory speech.
Simon Birmingham: I did I did acknowledge the plebiscite. And there I was very clear in my support for a yes vote and had long supported the equality there. And I think there’s a lesson there between the two. You know, Australians ultimately voted yes by more than they voted no to The Voice. They voted yes to same sex marriage because they saw it in a lens of equality. These people, in this case, people in same sex relationships, were seeking no more, no less than what other Australians had in access to marriage. And people could conceive that and they got it. Where The Voice potentially went off the rails was the sense from too many Australians that perhaps it was providing special rights or privileges. Now, I don’t think that’s what many of the indigenous advocates intended for it to do. And of course, Indigenous Australians will always have a special place in our country. But I think the message from Australians is they’re about equality and they will back equality. And the test in terms of Indigenous Australians, is that one of how we close the gap to achieve that equality and that any measures need to be framed in that way.
Rory McClaren: A couple more texts. Simon Birmingham would have made a good PM. And then another one. Birmingham’s a buck passer. Doesn’t understand democratic representation and duty. And another one. I’m a Liberal Party supporter. What is wrong with the party? It’s factions. There should just be no factions. Is the take of this particular text. Simon, Birmingham. What are you going to miss most?
Simon Birmingham: I think I’ll miss the. I’ll miss the engagement with people and the opportunity to make a difference. You know, my proudest moments are school funding reform, trade deals that that were enacted, things where I can look back and go, I made a difference. And the work that I did with some amazing people in my office, stakeholders, public servants and colleagues, all of whom helped us to achieve changes that are having lasting effect and benefit in our school system in terms of the way Australia engages with the rest of the world. And so that’s been an enormous honour to get to make those differences. But you do it ultimately for our country and for people across the country. And there have been wonderfully generous to me.
Rory McClaren: Some more texts. Simon isn’t my flavour of politics, but he carried himself well during his career. And also, another text, the hypocrisy of Labour want nuclear subs, but not power. Wearing your foreign affairs shadow hat at the moment, how confident are you that the ceasefire agreement in the Middle East can hold?
Simon Birmingham: Rory, it will be very fractious. I don’t think anybody should hold high degrees of confidence beyond the initial prisoner swap. I hope that it can extend beyond that prisoner swap, which, remember, Hamas is only releasing a small number of the prisoners that they allegedly still hold. Or at least they do hold. But what is unknown is how many of the residual are actually alive. So, there is a real risk there. But where I have some optimism and actually some optimism out of the Trump administration is the first Trump administration achieved normalisation of relations between Israel and a number of other countries, like the United Arab Emirates, who had been had long-standing hostilities. That normalisation of those so-called Abraham Accords, they’ve survived the challenge of the last 15 months. That has continued, and I know that there is a great eagerness, perhaps, to work with Saudi Arabia and others to broker something that could last for the future. And a peace in the Middle East is something that appears so elusive. But perhaps it is the one area where disruption may be able to achieve something.
Rory McClaren: Do you hold similar hopes for the situation in Ukraine?
Simon Birmingham: Ukraine, I mean, I hold hopes and I think President Trump’s language in the last 24 hours indicates he is wanting to put pressure on Russia, which is exactly where he should be. Put that pressure on Russia to come to the table for a just deal for Ukraine, and a just deal for Ukraine means that Russia doesn’t just keep all of the land that it’s captured. Ukraine doesn’t have to surrender rights to join NATO or rights to have security guarantees provided to it, including the Including the possibility of other European troops in Ukraine supporting their security for the future. So, putting that pressure on Russia to ensure Ukraine can get a just and lasting peace is the right thing to be doing at present.
Rory McClaren: Where’s the next marathon, Simon Birmingham?
Simon Birmingham: It’s a bit of a topic of discussion at home. My yep, last year turned 50 and I ran a marathon. Quit my job. Almost. But there is no sports car.
Rory McClaren: [Laughs] What is it about zero birthdays Simon Birmingham and job changes.
Simon Birmingham: There’s something about it. Rory. Indeed. Happy birthday for the other day.
Rory McClaren: Thank you very much. And Senator Simon Birmingham, thank you so much for your time today.
Simon Birmingham: Thank you for the opportunity. And to all the 891 listeners for putting up with me over the years.
[ENDS]